Practice Success Podcast

Jeremy Wortman Breaks Down Innovative Talent Strategies

• Canopy • Season 3 • Episode 8

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Jeremy Wortman, an organizational psychologist, emphasizes the importance of emotional intelligence in the workplace, focusing on how it drives employee engagement and business growth. The conversation also offers practical strategies for improving leadership and organizational effectiveness within a firm. 

KC Brothers:

Hi, I am KC Brothers, the host of Canopy Practice Success, and I am here with Jeremy Wertmann today. How are you doing?

Jeremy Wortman:

Good. How are you?

KC Brothers:

Good. Excellent. I'm ready. I'm ready to dive in because I have not spoken to anyone like you on this podcast.

Jeremy Wortman:

All right. Hopefully that's a good thing.

KC Brothers:

Yes. How about you give our listeners a quick background on yourself?

Jeremy Wortman:

All right. So, uh, currently I'm a, uh, a consultant to the accounting profession. 98 percent of my clients are

KC Brothers:

a typical one because we do have lots of consultants that we have talked to that talk about operations and accounting and you are not an accountant.

Jeremy Wortman:

No, I am not. I'm an organizational psychologist.

KC Brothers:

Yes. A very different background. Yeah.

Jeremy Wortman:

So, um, I consult with accounting firms, state societies, um, And I actually serendipitously got involved with the accounting profession during my dissertation years where I created a workshop around ethical decision making in business. Um, and that's right after all those iconic corporate meltdowns that required CPAs to get ethics training. Um, so I, I presented at an accounting related conference. And it took off like wildfire from there. That's when I was in corporate America, working at TD Ameritrade. Um, and I would take vacation days while I was there to go speak at these conferences. And as I kept speaking at these conferences, I was like, accountants are cool. They are really fun people to be around. And so as I continued to work with them, I'm like. Not only do they need ethics training, they need leadership training as they build these businesses. And then, as I kept working with them, I'm like, now that they're building even bigger businesses, they need talent management strategies. And that's when the stars aligned that I decided to go out on my own. Had a great thing going to T. D. But I'm very entrepreneurial spirited. So we're not on my own and have been doing that ever since I teach in open enrollment leadership development programs. I have my own leadership development program. I speak at tons of conferences and That is what has gotten me to my client base.

KC Brothers:

I love it. And you've been doing this, and we were chatting before this, since 2012 officially.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah. As

KC Brothers:

a side hustle.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah. I love that. A little bit

KC Brothers:

more.

Jeremy Wortman:

Right, right.

KC Brothers:

I just love that you took vacation days to do this. That's fun. That energizing to you. It's so fun.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah, that's how big of a nerd I am. I love talking about this stuff. I love working with this population because they're data driven folks. And that's the approach I take with all of my content development and training is everything's based on evidence. Everything's grounded in research. It's not glorified. Jeremy's glorified opinion. It's not pop psychology. And so when you can connect data to this kind of subjective field, if you will. um, human behavior in th actually really gravitate are some

KC Brothers:

of the biggest d reference often?

Jeremy Wortman:

So I'm a of personality in the wor one. Um, a lot of people over time. It doesn't, it and enduring at about the is a very comforting thin Right. Think about it. If our brain, if our personality was constantly rewiring itself, we would be in a constant state of identity crisis, crisis and chaos of who am I? So that's one of the things I do is like, recognize how your brain is wired and everybody else's. And that helps us understand human behavior in the workplace. And what that does is it helps us to identify the diversity of talent within a Organization. And how do we leverage that to achieve this business strategy instead of being annoyed with each other? So that is my most favorite thing that I've been doing for over 20 years. Um, and people absolutely love it. People love learning about themselves. They love learning about each other. And instead of being annoyed when you're working with somebody who is different than you, we've learned to not only tolerate it, but learn to appreciate it. And that just takes an organization to a whole nother level of, of teamwork and collaboration and overall effectiveness. So, um, that's, that's probably my, my, my biggest love, but I also, you know, talent management strategy in general, culture, um, leadership development. So for so many different reasons.

KC Brothers:

Yeah, let, let's dig into that first point a little bit more because you're, you're beating a drum. I like to beat. I'm a big fan of one methodology in particular, the CliftonStrengths.

Jeremy Wortman:

Oh, I'm a Gallup, I'm a certified Gallup strengths coach.

KC Brothers:

I want to get certified. I love it so much. I've read it. It's applications in work. My husband and I have read the marriage one. We've read the parenting one. It, I love the way to your point about like your personality doesn't evolve. We'd have an identity crisis. If it did, it really did help me understand myself better. It helps me speak to my strengths better. Cause I love the concept too of. Um, strengthening your strengths and not trying to strengthen your weaknesses. You are who you are. Bring yourself to work. And I, I've always to, as a manager, tried to consider that when it comes to like hiring a compliment

Jeremy Wortman:

or

KC Brothers:

the situation that you have, um, Have you used this then with teams?

Jeremy Wortman:

Oh, yeah. I took 6, 000 people through that assessment at TD Ameritrade. Um, and like I said, my doctorate program was actually in partnership with Gallup. And I actually got to learn from Don Clifton back in the day. No. Yeah. It was amazing. You and I

KC Brothers:

have heard out for a long time here. Oh, that's a nerve out.

Jeremy Wortman:

I love it.

KC Brothers:

Um, okay. So, do you do that now with, with firms that you might go in and consult and like, or what, what is your initial, when you go in and help a firm understand their leadership or talent issues, what, where do you start?

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah. So usually, um, I'll do a talent management audit. So when I was in corporate America and decided to go out on my own, I was like, how do you help these really smart and successful professionals? Think more holistically and comprehensively about the people side of their business, but without overengineering it, because there were some talent management models that exist, but they make my head spin when I look at them. So meeting the nerd that I am, I went out, did a bunch of research and I came up with my own five point model. And so I share that with leaders of organizations. And I said, let's do an audit against this model for your firm. And then we can identify what are the active ingredients that we already have in place. And let's capitalize on what are, what are we completely missing? What do you have that might need to be, uh, you know, upgraded. So we do that and that gives us a picture of where their human capital is. And we compare that to best practices. And then that allows me to then create a recommended plan in synthesis with their vision, mission, values, and business strategy. That's how they all come together and connect to be a strategic approach to their human capital. So that's where I like to start. Some organizations are like, you know what, we need to staff, staff retreat this year. We want to focus on leadership. You know, what do you recommend? So based on a little bit of needs analysis that I can recommend some best practices there, but I like to start with a more holistic approach of, you know, where are you at? Where have you been? Where do you want to go? And then I can put that all together for them.

KC Brothers:

Yeah. I love that. Um, I forget if I shared this on the podcast in some form or even just like tiny hints of it, but I might share it in more detail just because of the topic. But I, I have been. In my personal career, almost in back to back companies, where I had a really poor management situation, and I felt Awful. I wasn't producing the way I produce. I wasn't myself. I became more introverted and scared. Um, this leader was, uh, very fear based and, um, I remember even in our interview that he told me he was a natural pessimist. And I thought, how interesting for you to share that. Second, I'm a natural optimist. I was like, okay, but I was a little, you know, younger in my career and didn't see it as the red flag that it was. And anyway, fast forward to now my time at Canopy. I'd been at Canopy eight months and we do these monthly employees and yearly employees for different categories. Was shocked I'd only been there here eight months and got acknowledged as one of the employees of the year And I remember talking to someone in the lunchroom after who was having a hard time with her manager. I was like Look, this isn't about you. Management has such a huge effect on the way people below them produce. You're talking to someone who I felt like I was a CD player, just a company or two ago, and you were just here a month ago when you saw them acknowledge me. I don't mean to say this to toot my own horn by any means, but I just. Say it in terms of the impact good management and leadership has on its ability to get the most out of its employees beneath them. And that's not to say that I worked more hours. Yeah. I worked there, but like when you are thriving and enjoying your job, you can get more deep work done. You, you're not afraid to speak up and share concerns or ideas or all. I'd love your response to that. I kind of just word vomited.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah, I actually had to jot some things down here because I'm like, you hit so many nails on the head. First of all, it's been proven time and time again. Universally, the biggest driver of an engaged or disengaged employee is the immediate supervisor.

KC Brothers:

Yes.

Jeremy Wortman:

The people managers have all the power in your organization. And if we look at some micro behavioral economics, there is a strong connection between engaged employees and engaged customers. Same thing with disengaged employees that can scare off every customer you have right there is your economic link between the inside and the outside of your business. And if those are positive, so an engaged employee creates engaged customer. That's what drives business growth. I mean, there's a ton of science actually from Gallup. On that exact topic. And so how do you create, engage, um, employees where you got to teach your managers, how to be leaders as you and I were chatting about before this, you know, most managers in the accounting profession. aren't great leaders. And it's not because they're bad people. It's because they're technical experts. And when you're, when you get good at your job, you get promoted and with promotions comes leadership responsibilities. And we're asking people to do coaching, mentoring, good performance, feedback, all that good stuff, but they've never been taught how to do it. Right. So, and then the other part is, you know,

KC Brothers:

has it even been modeled for them in that regard? Then?

Jeremy Wortman:

No, no, old school paradigm you and I were talking about is butts in seats, number of hours, you know, don't care about the coaching and nurturing. So they've kind of been conditioned that way, too. So there's two things. Going against them already. And then the other thing that you talked about was kind of culture, right? Creating the, the buzzword right now is psychological safety. Creating that environment where people can, you know, step up and have straightforward conversations, voice their ideas and opinions without the fear of feeling stupid or retaliated against if they challenge something. So, I mean, you. In that little example you gave there, you hit three critical aspects that we need to look at to bring out the best in people.

KC Brothers:

A amen? That's like, I don't even know how to amen, other than just, I couldn't agree more.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah, your personal experience brings it to life.

KC Brothers:

Yeah.

Jeremy Wortman:

And I have, I have a leadership exercise that I do when I teach them. Like, I don't know, have you ever been to like Barnes Noble or your local bookstore?

KC Brothers:

Oh, of course.

Jeremy Wortman:

Have you ever gone to the self help or leadership, leadership section?

KC Brothers:

Yeah.

Jeremy Wortman:

It's, it's huge.

KC Brothers:

It's massive.

Jeremy Wortman:

It's massive. And there's, what I, which, what I see is I see a lot of people who want to get better as leaders and they do, they go to the bookstore and they get in there and they're like, this is overwhelming. Right. It's like, there's so much stuff out here. And I know by looking at them, like there's a lot of junk and there's a lot of good stuff. So you know, bless these, but anywho, I do this exercise to show them what is the right leadership model to follow. And, um, at the very beginning of the workshop, before I even show up, introduce anything to them. I'm like. Think of your worst boss ever and write down a very specific behavior he or she did to earn that title. And they have a little fun with that, some giggles. And then I'm like, think about your best boss ever. Write down his very specific behavior that they did to earn that title. I've done this with tens of thousands of people. Every single time, their worst boss behaviors all fall under one part of this model. Which is kind of what you, uh, um, shared in your example of management by fear. Right. And then the best leaders ever all fall under the four eyes of transformational leadership. And it's what's awesome about this is it's not rocket science. Um, and it sounds like common sense, but unfortunately it's not commonly practiced. So it's it can be taught. Um, we in more and more firms are starting to learn. We need to make that investment in helping our middle managers. Be better leaders, you know, a lot of firms will localize their leadership development training to partners, which they need it to Um, but I wouldn't just keep it at that top level. I'd say everybody in your firm has the Potential to be a leader. We just need to teach you what it is

KC Brothers:

I couldn't agree more everybody every adult really Um, I think of even like maslow's hierarchy of needs right every adult as long as these things are met Every adult wants to produce, wants to do a good job, wants to win and influence friends, wants to be a highly productive person. You know, those are two really famous self help books.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah.

KC Brothers:

The test time. Right. But everybody does want to. And I, I think somewhere between. Getting that promotion or transition from high producing IC to people manager. Um, we, it's so human to get concerned about what you're doing as the manager to get them to produce. And just, and not worrying. What do I, how do I want to say this? Just trusting them. That they are adults and they want to produce. So give them the things that they need and Watch them flourish.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah, easier said than done. That's for sure. And there's a few things against that, you know I think some why that might be a challenge for some adults one is could be their personality the the tool I use There are some people that are just naturally wired that if it's gonna be done, right? It's gonna be done right by me and it could either be an ego thing or there's this factor combination We look for there's just some people that are there are naturally skeptical and that doesn't have to be a bad Bad thing, right? That's their superpower. If they use it correctly. So some people have a harder time doing that just because they want to, they want, they know that they're going to do it right. So that's hard for them to release. So I coach those people very differently because the accounting profession, I feel naturally attracts high achievers, high achievers. They like to find out what's wrong and they like to fix it because they like to be the hero. So they, they naturally take on everything. And they want to make sure it gets done, so they continue to hold on to it because of that conditioning. So, I haven't heard anybody disagree with that, but you certainly can. Um, but that, I, I see that's a reason why. Partners, I think you were saying this earlier to me. Partners sometimes are holding on too much to the day to day. That's not the strategic value they bring to the firm anymore. I had a, a partner in California. I was teaching in this open enrollment leadership program. We were all in Phoenix. His partners from all over the country. I'm not teaching them that leadership model. I told you about just a moment ago about the best boss and worst boss ever. And he raised his hand. He's like, Jeremy, I've got a problem. He goes, my associates, whenever they run into a challenge, they literally won't even stop and think about it. They run to my office. And I literally said this to him. I'm like, when they run to your office with that problem, what do you do with the problem? What do you think he said? Solve

KC Brothers:

it.

Jeremy Wortman:

I solve it for him. I go, is that's the strategic value you bring to your firm? He's like, no,

KC Brothers:

you're incentivizing them to come to you.

Jeremy Wortman:

He's not incentivizing them

KC Brothers:

to solve their own problems,

Jeremy Wortman:

right? He literally trained them. That if they hit a problem to run to him, they didn't even think about it. And so once we got him in the right mindset up, that's not your strategic value. You need to empower blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Um, we came up with a methodology. It's called the toll booth on how he could, because his brain was wired to be a people pleaser. So for him to say no to somebody was super hard. So we, we helped coach around that. But basically we got him to think about his job is to grow and develop people. And supervisor weren't getting out, not doing the work. So those are a couple of reasons why I think higher level managers, partners have a hard time. Delegating.

KC Brothers:

Well, it's, um, it's, yeah, it's that trust. It's allowing someone else to take care of things. I think of, um, the book multipliers a little bit, but then I also, I remember sitting through a workshop. Um, let's see if I can do a Google really quick. Um, I'm blanking on the math term right now, but he was making this point that, okay, you can be additive, subtractive, multiplicative, you could be a multiplier. Divisive, or what's the equivalent adjective of an exponent that, that, um, but you know, power where you're instead of, or instead of two times 10, you get 20, but two to the 10th power. But, um, hopefully everybody's picking up what I'm laying down, but you get way more out of two to the 10th, then you do two times 10,

Jeremy Wortman:

right?

KC Brothers:

His point being, okay, how can, where do we fall in these categories? If we're going to use math as these. categories of how our performance lines up and when you can be exponential, maybe that's the right verb I'm looking for. Um, and, and you're helping the people beneath you do that as well. You're getting way more out of the same resources. And, and a lot of his, um, argument was that it had to do with the relationships you have with each other too. Then. It can only be multiplicative to a certain point, um, and then you hit your ceiling and, and then you either just stay there or you have, you can't, you make the jump into VR.

Jeremy Wortman:

I love that. And so when you find that book, send it to me because I want, I want to investigate that deeper because as I think about the research and evidence behind that, they're, they're basically, I think what you're talking about there is if you're, if you really believe in, it's the, the relationship that drives that potential for being exponential, it's emotional intelligence, right? Emotional intelligence is. Is the most critical success factor. It's my nerdy goal when I work with individuals and firms, and I literally tell this and I would love for you to make this a individual and firm core competency. If you could maximize everyone's potential around these five competencies of EQ, you would be exponential because it's all about, it's, it's, it's all about knowing yourself, self regulating, knowing the other person and having effective interactions. It's not that hard. Well, it is

KC Brothers:

maybe we've it is I think maybe we've teased the listeners enough What are the five points?

Jeremy Wortman:

All right So I think I use a triangle to remember the five core competencies of EQ and to teach it as well So at the foundation you have self awareness This is you knowing who you are and who you are not And how you impact others. That's a whole other level of self awareness. Um, the next competency then is once you know, once you have self awareness, which is knowing your strengths, weaknesses, and blind spots, it's self regulation. That is, can you channel those strengths and weaknesses in a positive way? Right? And I've coached over 500 people in my career. Emotional intelligence is the number one thing that I work on with folks. And self regulation is the most focused on competency. So self awareness is the first competency. Self regulation is the second. The third core competency,

KC Brothers:

I'm assuming because you're using a triangle that these do build, they build on top

Jeremy Wortman:

of each other. Yep. The third core competency is self motivation. As I joked about earlier, it's not hard. It is that the research proves emotional intelligence is developable, but it's very hard. It causes a lot of cognitive dissonance. So when I think of self motivation, it's like, why are you doing this? Like what's going to keep you motivated to keep working on emotional intelligence, even though it's so darn hard. Right. And so there there's exercises that we do to help build that muscle. Those first three core competencies of EQ are all intrapersonal. They're all about you. You'll never master those, but at least you can get pretty good at them. Now we go to the fourth core competency, which is social awareness. This is your ability to accurately understand the emotions and the talents of the people you work with. When I do my personality workshop with people, I do an exercise in there that demonstrates we are not good at social awareness. What we're actually really good at is labeling and judging people using negative terms. It's a fascinating eye-opening exercise. So again, the fourth core competency is social awareness. Can you, do you accurately understand the emotions and the talents of the people you work with? Which then leads us to the fifth core competency of social skills. And so the last two core competencies are interpersonal. The first three core competencies are interpersonal. So the bottom part of the pyramid is you knowing yourself and and channeling yourself productively. The second part, the last two competencies are accurately understanding the other person and using all of that data. To have a healthy interaction, which basically the last core competency. I love to bust conventional management wisdom And one of the pieces I bust with everybody is the golden rule What's the golden rule say at a really high level?

KC Brothers:

Treat others how you want to be treated.

Jeremy Wortman:

Yeah, we should never use that when working with each other in business because I don't want to be treated the way KC wants to be treated. I want to be treated the way Jeremy wants to be treated. That's

KC Brothers:

why we talk about the platinum rule, right?

Jeremy Wortman:

That's the rule, right? And again, sounds like common sense. Not commonly practiced. But when I take people in there, you will see the eyes just go wide open and ah ha and it's like You know, you're right, the golden rule at a high moral level, I agree with, but on a daily interactive basis, no, that's where you use personality talent data, like the StrengthsFighter or the tool that I use to accurately understand someone else, that's how we use it in teams, and then we use that data going forward to be like, oh, okay, so this is a real life example, I'm not detail oriented, I know a lot of my clients are, so when I'm working with a client that's detail oriented, Even though I'm more naturally casual and flexible and maybe a little bit have a little bit more mistakes than the average person I will button up my work and be more focused on details Be more accurate when working with those people because I know that motivates them

KC Brothers:

Wow, I love it so much and I feel like we could talk about this for forever or at least I could I'm Highly passionate about these things as you've already heard. Um, Thank you, Jeremy. Um, summarize really quick. Let's go through those five points again really quick. Can I test myself?

Jeremy Wortman:

Go for it. Love it.

KC Brothers:

Okay, self awareness, self regulation,

Jeremy Wortman:

good job,

KC Brothers:

self motivation,

Jeremy Wortman:

nice work,

KC Brothers:

social awareness,

Jeremy Wortman:

nice,

KC Brothers:

social skills,

Jeremy Wortman:

100%.

KC Brothers:

Nailed it.

Jeremy Wortman:

Nailed it.

KC Brothers:

Okay. Um, if people want to learn more, reach out to you. Where do they go?

Jeremy Wortman:

Uh, you can go to my website, www. hrdinitiatives. com. Um, again, www. hrdinitiatives. com. Or I'm sure Google Jeremy Wortman. Um.

KC Brothers:

We'll have things linked in the show notes and other places as well. So.

Jeremy Wortman:

Okay. All right. Thanks for having me.

KC Brothers:

Yeah, thank you, Jeremy.

Jeremy Wortman:

Have a good day.