Debra Kilsheimer: Beyond Billable Hours

In this episode, KC Brothers interviews Debra Kilsheimer, a CPA and host of the podcast 'Bookkeepers on Fire.' Deborah shares her unique approach to accounting, emphasizing the importance of value-based pricing over traditional billable hours. 

She discusses her journey in the accounting profession, the significance of understanding client needs, and how technology can enhance efficiency. Deb advocates for building strong client relationships and motivating clients through achievement rather than fear. The conversation also touches on the future of accounting practices and the importance of time management in delivering value to clients. 

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Transcript

Host: KC Brothers (00:05)
Welcome to another episode of Canopy Practice Success. I'm your host, KC Brothers, and I'm here with the lovely Deborah. Deborah, will you give us a quick introduction of yourself?

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (00:16)
I'm Deborah Kilsheimer. I'm a accountant, CPA, bookkeeper, business owner. Yes, I'm a host of a podcast and YouTube channel called Bookkeepers on Fire. Please like, subscribe and share with my co-host Donna Reed. We've been doing that now just a little over a year, so it's a lot of fun. And I have my own accounting practice with my husband Harold. I live in Florida, two kids who are grown and I just have a new grandchild who's just turned five months. My son just sends me Snapchats all the time.

snaps and pictures and all I do is look at this kid. I and I don't even like children. I just keep, I put it on my wallpaper where you can change picture on tap. All new pictures I keep adding and I'm just tapping on my phone.

Host: KC Brothers (01:02)
And then before you know it, 30 minutes has gone by.

billing for those 30 minutes.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (01:09)
No, I never bill by the hour anyway. I have never bill by the hour ever. Not once.

Host: KC Brothers (01:15)
I could give a round of applause there without blowing out people's eardrums, I would. Why? I mean, I have all of these passionate things. Here I am in marketing. have coworkers who work to agencies and they speak of their time in agencies where they tracked time in 15 minutes intervals. People who are listening can't see our faces. I don't want to do that ever again. But accountants do it. There's been so many conversations about pricing.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (01:35)
We're making a face.

Host: KC Brothers (01:44)
in accounting firms for years now. You've been on this train for quite some time. So you've seen resistance to it. Talk to us about your reasons why you don't do billable hours.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (01:57)
I grew up in, I start way back in the beginning, when I grew up in a family where my dad was a clock collector, my whole life was revolved around time. My dad was a school teacher. He became a business manager of a school district, Neshamany School District in Pennsylvania. And they one day went in and decided to change all of the clock. Remember in school, the school bell would go off, you could change to the next class? Well, they changed that system in the school. So my dad got the old clocks and he put them in.

In our

Host: KC Brothers (02:27)
No. I thought-

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (02:28)
So the bell would go off when dinner time was, when bedtime was, when the alarm was. My whole life was ruled around clocks.

Host: KC Brothers (02:37)
Does your heart rate accelerate when you hear those bells now?

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (02:40)
I actually love clocks, but it was like my whole thing was around time. But I always thought to myself, why is this so important? And then I got my job, you went to college and got my first job as a CPA firm, and they told us the importance of tracking every six minutes. Every six minutes. This is silly. The longer I take, more the client will pay.

Host: KC Brothers (02:59)
Six minutes?

money.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (03:07)
And then I thought, but I don't want to take a long time. I want to leave at five o'clock. I was just newly married. I wanted to go home to my new husband. I, you know, I didn't want to stay in the office till eight o'clock. So I thought, well, what if I just get it done? Well, then my boss would say, you're not, your billable rate per client is not as high as Tony's. I said, yeah, but Tony takes too long. Then I thought, wow, Tony may be smarter than me because they like him more and he does actual less work. I thought if a client was fortunate enough to get me.

Their tax return would cost less than if Tony got them. I went to the boss one day and I said, you know, why are we charging by the hour? This seems silly to me. Yeah, because I got to track my time every six minutes. So I got to spend half a Friday trying to remember what I did. Seriously. And then you, you look at it say, well, I don't, think you took too long on this. You write off half of what I did. And then the client gets the bill and says, I don't think it should have taken you this long to do a bank rec. So you write it off again. So you get down to the price. The client really wanted to pay in the first place. That makes no sense to me. No. So.

He goes, well, that's just how we do it. I go, well, I think it's backwards. I think we should change it. I think we should charge a flat rate. And he looked at me like I'd grown two heads. Oh God, it was 1982. I had that job because I thought this is the worst job in world. I hate this job. I hate it. But every time I needed to make extra money, I would go get a job like at Robert Half an account temp. And I remember one day I walked into a CPA firm during tax season and I said, well, where are your computers? Oh, we don't have computers. Why not?

Host: KC Brothers (04:13)
And my

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (04:33)
Well, we couldn't charge the clients as much then because we could do the tax returns faster. What? Shut up. I'm not kidding you. I am not kidding you. ⁓

Host: KC Brothers (04:38)
SHUT-

That grinds my ear.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (04:43)
So

I brought my own computer in and did them because I just I could not stand the inefficiency of it Because I thought they're not paying for the time in the chair my butt in the seat I always say they're paying for the brain between my ears. So does it matter to us? How long something takes to do what matters is the outcome that we get like if you went to a restaurant and you know Are they going to charge you more if the meal took 10 hours to cook? Oh Let me spend the night

and you can charge me more money. They charge based on the value of what it is you're receiving. They go, why don't we charge on the outcome? Does it really matter how long something takes? If I had to have open heart surgery, am I gonna ask the doctor, how long is it gonna take in there? I want him to get it done accurately, effectively, and efficiently. I am not worried about how long he's in there. I want it done right. And I thought,

Host: KC Brothers (05:28)
It's not taking long, right?

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (05:40)
Clients want stuff done right too. Why does it matter how long it takes me? So then when the technology is happening, all of the computers and the AI now coming in and QuickBooks Online and all of the efficiencies of the computer started, because when I started, the only computer we had was an adding machine. That was it. So, and we had one adding machine. We had a passing around the office. But I remember a handheld HP calculator was over $100.

The one they give away to you at the bank now. With all the computer technology coming, you know, the efficiencies started to happen. So am I going to charge less because it's taking me less time? Are they paying for my time or are they paying for the output? I thought, really think this profession is backwards. I don't like that we're always looking behind us. We're not making a difference. Cause my dad being a teacher, I knew school closed every year. So did my two brothers and my sister. We all had everything we needed.

We did not live in the mansion on the hill. My dad drove a used car. We did not shop at the fanciest store in town because what was important to my mom and dad was our education and having a family. They learned how to use the bucket of money my dad earned so we could do all of the things that we wanted to do as kids. I mean, I had a perfect life growing up on a teacher's salary. No debt. I thought that was what accounting should be. You take the bucket of money you have and ask client, what's important to you? Okay, let's take this.

and make this happen and his life changes in a client's life. Like my son just had a baby. What's important to him now with a brand new grand baby is different. That's going to be in 10 years in 20 years, because his life will change. Just like in all of our life. I thought what's happening now that accounting can help make that happen. I thought that's what accounting would should be to me. It wasn't though, when I was working in the profession. was nothing like that.

Host: KC Brothers (07:33)
Still isn't.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (07:35)
No, they just want to grind it out. They just produce tax returns and spit it out and get out. I mean, I have to tell you, people think that I've lost my head. I have a lot of clients I do and very few of them even look at their profit and loss and balance sheet. Look at the financial statements. In I was on a panel one time at QuickBooks Connect and with Vanessa Vasquez, who I adore, and David, I forget his last name, sorry David, forget his last name. Alison Ball was the moderator and they were talking about how they go over the foul and shoots with the client. And I said, I don't do that.

I didn't give them to them. And they went, the whole audience went, ⁓ gasp. How come? I said, did they read them? When you go give them, did they read these things? And they go, I said, no. I said, it's like when I go to the doctor and he gives me a lab report, here's your labs, Debbie. What does that mean? I have no idea what I'm looking at. I said, tell me what's important on this thing that I should know. I said, if anything looks weird, let's discuss. I asked the client, said, well, we can go over your P &L and your balance sheet if you want, or are you more interested if I see something whacked, we'll talk about it.

that, I don't care about. I'm interested in running my business. I have turned everything around because I've always asked questions and been curious about what do clients want? Not what we want. We want to give them the balance sheet, the income statement and go over that word for word, line by line. Let me tell you about how to a receipt. You know, we motivate by fear. ⁓ if you don't give me the receipt, the IRS is going to come calling. You're going to, you're going to go to jail. mean, no, motivate by achievement. That's much more lasting. Think about it. Fear motivation.

is when you're driving down the highway and you're speeding and you see a police officer hiding in the bushes. You slow down. And as soon as you think you're out of range, you speed right back up again. And you can do the bad thing all over again. But if achievement motivation works in 95 % of the case and is lasting, I want to achieve something. I try to find out what do the clients want? They want to bill a business to be able to send their kids to college or to be able to attend the soccer games.

Why did you start the business? That's the value that I'm trying to do and help transform their lives so they can make their dreams happen. I never charged by the hour, never did, never want to. And then when I met Hal, you know, he was a tax guy. He had his own tax and accounting practice. And I'd been working at a big law firm and a month into our seeing each other, they did away with my department. I was out of a job and I thought, oh my gosh, what am going to do? And he said, well, you're a CPA, come work for me. I go, no, I hate how CPA firms are run.

I said, I will, if you let me run it how I think it should be run. He goes, look, I like doing tax. If you take care of everything else, deal. So we started working together. And I said, okay. So I took his tax clients and turned them into monthly accounting clients, started to grow there, got on QuickBooks, start to use all the technology. And that was 23 years ago, I think we've been together doing this and it's turned out really well. know, clients like us, we really are into transforming clients' lives, not just

printing out a tax return. The tax return to us is a required report that we have to do every year. It's not the reason we're in business. It's the reason they call you a lot of times. But then you turn that around to get into the whole full accounting thing about what accounting can mean if they get their finances in order, what it will mean for their life. Accounting changed lives. I always want to say that. ⁓

Host: KC Brothers (10:50)
think most accountants, every accountant I've talked to at least, they're in it for that. They talk so passionately about their clients and helping them and wanting to make a difference. I don't know, not being an accountant, not having worked in an accounting firm, why are these behaviors so entrenched? Things that you've talked about, writing up, writing down, you said write off, I know they're same anyway, to make it a motto, right, hopefully.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (11:13)
I just think what do clients want?

Host: KC Brothers (11:16)
That's where I was going to go with that. I think, again, the majority of accountants share this desire to help, to lift, to transform, but they're entrenched with these old habits. Do you sit down and have a discovery meeting of sorts with clients? I feel like there's things that they don't know because you said they come for the IRS or whatever the form needs to be done.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (11:32)
We saw my meet them.

know what we can do. Yes. When I first meet them, I said, well, thanks for calling. Why did you call me today? Oh, you know, my books are a mess and haven't done it in five years. They never call it. Gee, everything's perfect and wonderful. And I just couldn't, I wanted you as a part of my life. I've never gotten that call. So I go, great. Well, I can help you with that. Tell me, tell me about what you do. So I ask about them and what, why did you start their business? Tell me about your life. I talked to them as people.

not as a professional accountant. And I never shame them. Where, you know, I think it takes great courage to pick up the phone and ask for help. Because they think, with myth out there, that anybody should be able to do this. That there's something wrong with them because they don't like it. My mom, I have a housekeeper. She thinks there's something wrong with me because I pay for somebody to clean my house. Don't you know how to clean a house? Absolutely I know how to. I don't want to.

Host: KC Brothers (12:36)
I studied economics and really big for me is opportunity costs. Okay, yeah, I could mow my lawn. Yeah, I could clean my house. What can I be doing with my time instead? That's always been a theme since graduating college for me that I've really retained and apply in all sorts of areas. And I think of that too with what you're talking about with tracking time. I want to be home at five or I want to be efficient. And again, people are paying for the outcome. They're not paying for...

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (13:03)
They don't care.

Host: KC Brothers (13:05)
They want the brain between your ears.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (13:07)
I don't even track my time for my staff.

Host: KC Brothers (13:10)
No way. what about the people who are like, but Deborah, ⁓ how do you know if you're profitable?

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (13:17)
the chip book balance. There's an ebb and a flow with every client. Sometimes you'll work a little harder, some months because something comes up. Sometimes you work a little less. It's just ebb and flow. I mean, I don't worry about, ⁓ gee, I'm spending more time on this client. Now, what I do track though is scope. they have say, here's all we can do for you. Well, I don't want you to do a workers comp audit, sir. I'm not going to do sales. I don't have sales tax and I have no payroll. No problem.

Okay, now all of a sudden now they have payroll out of scope. All right, we need to have a discussion because now we're going to add that service, you know, or sales tax. I have my people track scope, not time, because if all of a sudden they didn't want us to do AP and now you're tracking the bills and matching them to bill payments and all of that. So, or receipt.

Host: KC Brothers (14:05)
upset them too, because you're doing this thing that's out of scope. But again, like did they ask for it? And going back to the conversation about, well, what do they want? What are they ultimately trying to drive? And I think there are some really interesting things here to unpack of just the value that accounting provides people with freedom, security, confidence. The freedom's a big one because you're going to be serving, for the most part, businesses, small businesses, who are passionate about

The thing that they want to do in business, but they don't know the business stuff. They don't know the finances. They want to open, they love baking pies. They want to open a bakery, but then they get pulled away by running the business and the painting it and say, okay, well you are providing them a service that gets them to fall back in love with why they're doing.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (14:54)
It allows them to bake the pies. So let me track all of the foundational stuff, keep you in line with all the regulatory things. You know, like if you have employees, you have to make sure they're paid. know, this is running a business has rules. So I'm going to track the rules. You make pies. Now we're going to work together because we want you to be in the pie making business forever. And depending on how much

You want to grow. Do you want to like sell your pie business one day? Are you happy just making pies for the church bazaar every week? I mean, and, we need to make sure you're making money. So you stay in business to be able to keep making pies because we're going to take the money, the profit that you make and feed other families with it, because that's what the employees that you're going to hire. So they can feed their families. And then with the profit that business makes, how do you want to spend it on your family? Do you want to save it for Disney vacations, colleges, retirement?

How do you want to spend your time when you're not baking pies? I don't want you to be baking pies 24 hours a day. You know, you could, but what happens is people get consumed in their business because they don't understand their own pricing of stuff. That's the value that we can bring. I talked to them about that in the initial conversation about how we work together and what we can do at behind the scenes to make them be profitable. I said, think of it like this, and I like to use the stories and analogies. You know, if you hired a housekeeper,

You're hiring her to vacuum and dust all the technical stuff. But what you're really hiring is to come home for a house that smells like pine salt. So you can go in a bed that's cleanly made. You know your pots and pans are spick and span. You can come home and ⁓ take a breath. For the feeling you get from having a clean home. You don't have to clean it. So what you want is someone who knows exactly how you like your home cleaned.

Host: KC Brothers (16:34)
feeling they're doing

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (16:44)
You like it this way, you like it that way. You like all your shirts hung in the same way. You you like your underwear folded a certain way. So when you open the drawer, they're all how you like them. So you need someone you trust enough to be in your underwear drawer. And that's me for your accounting and your business. They get the analogy and they go, ⁓ when you're done talking, well, how much does this cost? You know, I said, tell me about your business. How much your revenue? How much do you do? My highest paying client. And this is where psychology comes in.

You if you go to one of these high-end malls in the glass window, see Manola Blahnik shoes in the window for $10,000. Wow. Those are expensive shoes. Now you walk into the store and you pick up a pair and they're only $2,000. You go, oh wow, these aren't as, these are cheap. Because you've anchored the price at 10,000.

Host: KC Brothers (17:35)
Thank you for bringing up anchoring. This is a concept I've known for a long time. I think accountants are maybe getting into it with engagements and packages and stuff like that.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (17:45)
They start with the minimums. go there. So start with the high one. My highest paying client are from me 6,000 a month. We are a whole kit and caboodle for him. That might not be where we are with you. Now, 6,000, that kind of service is like CEO, CFO service level. And if you were to hire a CFO, you'd be paying 120,000. He gets a CFO for half the price of a hired CFO. Now they've upped their level of thinking.

But I think what you need based on what you've told me, you're Larry the landscape guy, you just need somebody to make sure that your cash is correct. I don't talk about bank wrecks, but cash. That make sure your cash is correct, that we don't have any wackadoos stuff happening in your bank account. You know, that your credit cards are current, that there's no double charging, no fraud, that they're all accurate. That when we get to the tax return, that you will pay tax. I always tell them that too.

Well, I don't want to pay any tax. Well, there's one way I have where you don't have to pay tax. Oh, what's that? I tell this to all my clients on in December, we're going to sit down. We're going to look to see what your profit is because you pay tax on profit. And before year end, if we see that you've made $10,000, you'll pay tax on that. Now, if you don't want to pay any tax, what's going to happen is I'm going to get you an invoice from my firm to yours for that profit for the $10,000. You will pay that. Now you'll have no income, no taxable income.

and you'll pay no tax. That's one way we can get around you not paying any tax is you'll pay me your profit at the end of the year. They look at me like, I want them to understand it. And they go, well then I won't have any money. Yeah, but you didn't want to, it wasn't about no money. You said you didn't want to pay any tax. So the goal is to pay tax. We want to do tax planning. We can minimize your tax and we're not going to cheat. We're not going to lie. We're not going to steal. Every time I go out to eat, it's a business. No.

because we want to see how profitable your business, because one day you're gonna want to sell it. We want to get max price for it. I start talking like that in the very beginning. They go, ⁓ okay. So you will pay tax, means you made money. The minimum price I charge for anybody is 8.50 a month. Even though I don't like time, my limiting factor is time. So is yours. We only have 168 hours in the week, every single one of us. It's not that I don't want them to succeed, but if I spend a client that only...

will pay me $100. I'm missing out on one that will pay me $6,000 or $850.

Host: KC Brothers (20:07)
That I do want to drive home to this is opportunity to cost to me This is the conversations of have you found your ideal client? Are you working for them? Are you doing to fire? These other clients, but you said it in such a way that I don't feel like people are talking about as vocally like they're saying all those terms I listed but they're not saying it the way that you just said

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (20:29)
I will tell you, it's very scary that you have this hundred dollar client or a PITA client, know, one you don't like working on, and let them go. Because if you let them go, you won't have the hundred dollars anymore. What if nobody comes along? A better one comes along, you know. So I said, it's not a problem. So another client will come along. One of the great things about accounting, everybody needs you. It's like hair, everybody needs a hair cutter, a barber.

Host: KC Brothers (20:58)
Yes.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (20:59)
Everybody

needs a funeral director and everybody needs an accountant.

Host: KC Brothers (21:02)
There will always be someone going into business again tomorrow who will try and do it on their own for a while and then they realize they can't do it or they can't do it the right way or it's taking away from their time to do these other things. A few questions. You're helping your clients understand this. You have your rate that you're charging. You're not tracking time. Do you ever approach them and say, hey, I've made you more money or we've accomplished our goals or I have...

these things in mind to help you make more money and then have another conversation about pricing or offering something else.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (21:36)
No, really don't. know, lot of people, think a lot of people say, you price based on the value you create. I don't really have that formula in my head. You

Host: KC Brothers (21:46)
I like

sounds of like, okay, well, I'm going to start here because I have to start.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (21:50)
is you've grown enough now that I think we need to start doing bill pay. Yes. So now I think we should add bill pay. I'm happy to take care of that for you and would only mean your price would go up by this.

Host: KC Brothers (21:54)
Okay, this is where I'm going.

And then I'm sure too, you're having the conversation around what it is, why it's important to them, again, driving back. What is it that you're trying to do with your time? How many hours do you want to be at the bakery?

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (22:12)
Why do we need to add this? This is a service we need to add because now you're spending, I have a pool company. She must write 30 checks a month, a week. I go, Kim, we need to get you on a bill pay system. You're spending all of your time writing checks. I don't want to do that. How come? Well, because she's afraid of it. Because if she does that, now her time is available. She won't know what to do with herself. Busy work makes her feel like she's working in her business. I said, until you decide that you are worth more than writing

30 checks a month a week, you will never grow your business. It frustrates me because I know how much more we could make this business and how much more you could have back in your life. I want you to add up, just do me the favor. She's never done it yet, by the way. Just track how much time you spend every day writing checks. Just imagine if I could get you, give you that time every day. Next time you tell somebody, I can't cause I have no time.

Think to yourself, Debbie said I could have the time if I gave up writing checks. I talked to them like this. I'm their advisor, not just their bookkeeper, accountant, tax preparer. I care about my clients. I care about them. They know it. So when their birthdays are, a happy anniversary was the day they became a client. I have a client right now, very good clients. They sold their business. He had a heart attack intubated in Texas. She flew out there. said, if you need me to come, I'll be there. That's how much.

they become our friends and our family to us.

Host: KC Brothers (23:38)
accountants can relate to that, but I think they unintentionally stymie themselves.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (23:45)
Now, I still do all those things, but with AI technology, I don't have to get the green ledger paper like I used to have and tick and tie everything out like I used to do. The computer does it. One of my other famous phrases is, that saves you time costs you money. And people look at me like, funny, go, well, do you drive a car? Well, yeah, you could walk, but cars go faster. You know, they're more comfortable, but they're a lot more money than a pair of sneakers.

So technology to me is a car and it costs money, but it saves me time. When I first get the technology, I have to take the time to learn it. You sell canopy, you know, any of your clients that want, they have to learn how to use it to get the max value out of it so they can now increase what they're doing. So they're not spending the things that your software will take away because it does it for them automatically. But you have to know how to use it, just like you have to learn how to drive a car. You know, the more you use it, the better you get. I mean, just thought.

I have a good time. I love this job. I make a difference in people's lives.

Host: KC Brothers (24:45)
Yes, you do, as do most accountants. The point that we both want to drive home is that you don't have to make a difference in someone's life and be a martyr to your own. And all of these things that are so entrenched, it's like, let it go, take it off, talk about the value you're adding, find the value by having those conversations. The last thing I do want to touch on, we are talking about providing value, utilizing pricing strategies to...

get the value for us as the accountants. I have long heard pricing strategies in context of building up your multiple and talking to you, Deborah, with your husband who's, you said 79. Do we know when he's going to retire?

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (25:28)
He doesn't want, we almost sold the practice this past year. We got down to where we were going to sign it. And we sit, looked at each other, what would we do instead? Because I don't know. I really liked doing this. I go, me too. Why are we doing this for? Because we should. I never wanted to should on myself. I think we're just sounding because we think we should. I think you're right. What we do after every taxi is we sit down and go, what process internally can we change? What's your biggest frustration?

Host: KC Brothers (25:33)
Okay.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (25:55)
for tax because when clients make an appointment and don't keep it and it's always the same ones. I said, what could we do? So you're not frustrated by that anymore. He was what I'm going to do when they call up next year is the only time I'm going to have available is the weekend before April 15th. That's it because they will always make it before April 15th. The only time I have available is Sunday, April 14th at two o'clock. They will have to be ready because they don't keep that appointment.

they go to extension and then he's relaxed about it. I like that idea. I said, let's next time they call, we know who they are. So we go through the frustrations. love it. Any clients listening, if he tells you that your appointment is going to be April 14th, you know, you're one of those people that cancels on it. It's your fault.

Host: KC Brothers (26:43)
It's your fault.

A shift happened in the market where people stopped wanting to buy the client list and they wanted to buy process.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (26:49)
I don't know one, because we just decided to sell the practice. But I realized that that's what they were looking for. Because in the mindset that's, doesn't mean. Like, well, what's your process? And I said to him, what about the clients that we're taking care of? He goes, frankly, we don't really care about the clients. We only care about your process. ⁓ yeah, he said it. I'm like, great.

Host: KC Brothers (26:58)
The questions what what what?

He flat out said it.

Who was the buyer? kind of role was it? A private equity firm? it another accountant?

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (27:17)
It was a big,

he was buying all these little firms up. And he goes of all the, of course I kind of was happy because all the firms we've talked to you, your processes are, said, yeah, because my time is really. You did it. did. Yeah. Like, wow, how about that? little.

Host: KC Brothers (27:32)
I feel so proud in that moment.

Yeah, you saw this 40 years ago, frustrated with the systems, and here you are on the verge of selling your firm and someone says, no, you figured it out. You unlocked the code, Debra. Oh, it's got to feel so good.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (27:51)
And I'm not special. I am no more special than anyone else. I think where I was different was I always asked the question. I was always curious. Why do we do it like that? Why can't we do it like this? What if I tried it like that? You know, you know, I was very important to me. This is how I want to my life.

Host: KC Brothers (28:13)
We should all be important to ourselves. We can only give as much as our cups are full and with accountants always talking about wanting to empower, enable, support, help other people achieve their dreams, you can't do it if you're depleted.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (28:25)
Exactly. Some people might call me selfish. I don't think so. me to be able to give to other people, I have to feel like I have enough to give. So I make sure that I do the things that make me happy. We live our life exactly as we want to live it. So I only want to work with clients who I want to work with. Even though everybody needs us, if I don't like you, I don't have to work with you. That lid fit another pot. It just wasn't me.

Host: KC Brothers (28:52)
You can appreciate another human and their accountant.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (28:55)
They're all wonderful guys.

only wanted to work with people I liked that realized that I really could make a difference that saw them, that really will be receptive to what I'm doing. So I, my client list is smaller. I'm not a chop shop. You know what I mean? I'm not a churn them and burn them. Yeah. So we have much more limited client lists, but I can really give value to all of them. Cause again, I only have 168 hours in the week and I don't want to work 24 seven.

You know, I'm always on top of things with them. I'm looking out for their best interest.

Host: KC Brothers (29:26)
This is another concept that I feel like accountants could understand better is the cost of acquiring a customer. It's abbreviated CAC. We talk about it all the time. Every tech company I've been at talks about it. It is so much more profitable to retain a client and then to offer bill pay, offer these, you know, and grow that relationship than it is to churn and burn or to find another customer to.

To say yes to everyone, to say yes to the $100 client and talk yourself full but get burnt out and then get frustrated with them and then ditch them and then find someone. That whole process is awful. Not just for your revenue but for your mental, emotional health, your physical health even. There are better ways to do this. And Deb, you've highlighted so many of them. Thank you so much.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (30:11)
Well, this is a real joy to be, I hope I didn't talk too much. get really excited about this because I think this is the best job.

Host: KC Brothers (30:16)
You and I could gig, I think you and I are the same person in different industries.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (30:20)
Yeah. ⁓

Host: KC Brothers (30:22)
Deb, if they wanted to, mentioned a podcast, anything else that you want to mention? The podcast was Bookkeepers on Fire.

Guest: Deb Kilsheimer (30:28)
Bookkeeper's on fire. We try to go live once a week and then we have a podcast where the answer, accounting questions, that's on Spotify, Apple, and then YouTube is the live one. Both bookkeepers on fire. then of course, they want to reach me, I'm on LinkedIn.