Facts vs. Stories: How Self-Awareness Makes Better Leaders

Trust, Self-Awareness, and the Stories Leaders Tell Themselves

With Lori Zukin, CEO and Founder of Zukin Leadership

Most trust problems in accounting firms aren't interpersonal. They're structural.

In this episode of Canopy Practice Success, organizational psychologist and executive coach Lori Zukin breaks down what trust actually is, why it breaks down in firms, and what leaders can do about it. Lori draws on 25 years of coaching executives across professional services, her work facilitating leadership programs for Simon Sinek's Optimism Company, and her experience running leadership immersions for high-potential accountants at Baker Tilly.

The conversation covers the psychology behind trust, self-awareness, and the stories we tell ourselves about colleagues — including a deceptively simple exercise that separates facts from opinions and immediately reduces conflict. Lori also shares the framework she uses to help leaders understand their state of mind and why getting above the line before a hard conversation changes everything.

Whether you're a partner navigating a PE transition, a manager stepping into a new leadership role, or someone who's wondered whether an executive coach might help — this episode gives you a clear and practical picture of what the work looks like.

What You'll Learn

• Why most trust problems on accounting teams are structural, not interpersonal
• How to break trust down into three components: capability, reliability, and intention
• The facts vs. opinions exercise that immediately reduces unnecessary conflict
• What "above the line" and "below the line" mean — and how to use it before a hard conversation
• When the right time to work with an executive coach actually is
• The difference between executive coaching and life coaching
• Why self-awareness outranks experience as the most important long-term leadership skill
• The most overlooked leadership skill in accounting firm leaders today
• Why wisdom matters more than knowledge when it comes to long-term growth

Connect With Lori

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/lori-zukin-19a317a/?skipRedirect=true

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Transcript

Canopy Host (00:05) Welcome to another episode of Canopy Practice Success. I am your host, Casey Brothers. Today on the podcast, I'm excited to welcome Lori Zukin. Lori is the CEO and founder of Zukin Leadership, an organizational psychologist, and executive coach with more than 25 years of experience.

She works with leaders across professional services and beyond, and currently facilitates with Simon Sinek's Optimism Company while coaching leaders in the Presidential Leadership Scholarship Program — founded by President George H.W. Bush and President Bill Clinton. Lori believes she doesn't specialize in industries; she specializes in people.

Today we're diving into the psychology of leadership, trust, and mental health in high-pressure environments like accounting firms. Lori, I am so excited.

Lori Zukin (00:51) I am as well. Thank you so much for having me.

Canopy Host (00:54) Before we get to it, I want to hear more about what we mentioned in your intro. Talk to us about your experience facilitating content with Simon Sinek and the Presidential Leadership Scholarships Program.

Lori Zukin (01:09) PLS is what we call it — a little easier.

During COVID, the Optimism Company by Simon Sinek had to change their delivery approach. Like many organizations, they came together and said: we want to offer useful content, and we have to do it virtually.

They came to me and said they knew about some of the work I do around clear communication and effective meetings. So I put together workshops tailored to them. It must have been thousands of people during the height of COVID — workshops ranging from 25 to 90 minutes on clear communication, how to make effective requests and agreements, and how to run effective virtual meetings.

Those went really well. Now I'm working even more closely with Simon's team on facilitations for senior leaders across all industries — the U.S. Tennis Association, various nonprofit and government organizations, and hopefully the Army coming up. I've also facilitated workshops directly for Simon and his direct reports.

Canopy Host (02:50) Fascinating. There are real dynamics that change in a virtual environment — you can't just function the same way you did before COVID. Even if some firms are back full-time in the office, hybrid and remote mean you can't overlook it.

Lori Zukin (03:38) Exactly. The key is having clear norms on what's expected — whether you're at home or coming in. In a lot of the offices I work with, especially startups, there are large open areas. They want people to come in, but then no one can hear each other on calls. So: what are the expectations when you do come in? How do you share information while respecting confidentiality? If you're doing remote calls, is it expected that you're on camera? Do people have the bandwidth at home to be on?

When we don't lay out those expectations, people get frustrated and uncomfortable — and that reduces trust.

Canopy Host (04:30) You said a really big word there: trust.

We're talking to an industry that has inherited a lot of cultural habits that people are white-knuckling still, while many others leave the industry because of them. What is trust in the workplace, and why does it matter?

Lori Zukin (05:04) Trust isn't just one thing. There's been a lot written about it, but at its core, trust comes down to three questions: Is that person capable? Are they reliable? And are their intentions what they say they are?

It helps to break it down that way. Will they do what they said? Do they have the skill for the job? And even if the outcome wasn't what I hoped — do they mean well?

When we break trust into those three areas, we can figure out how to build trust with someone, but also assess where trust is actually breaking down. Because a lot of times we throw out "I can't trust that person" — when maybe there are parts of that person you can trust and parts you can't. Breaking it down helps you have a more useful conversation.

There's also a second piece I'd add: so many clients call me and say "my team doesn't trust each other." But when I dig in, the real issue is often structural. If a team doesn't have clear roles, a clear shared objective, or clear decision authority, people start accidentally stepping on each other's toes. My intentions are positive, but I start doing something that feels like your job — and that creates distrust even when there's no bad intent.

In my early years, I'd focus on the relationship piece first. Over time, I realized that a lot of teams haven't clarified their purpose, their roles and responsibilities, or their decision authority. When we establish that structure first, the trust issues often resolve — and then we can bring in the relationship work.

Canopy Host (07:15) That resonates. I do a lot of persona research at Canopy, and years ago I spent time going through accounting firm job postings. Coming from tech, where role clarity is very specific, I found it genuinely hard to figure out who was responsible for what. Multiple staff accountants, tax managers, partners, office admins — but who owns what?

In my team at Canopy, we have clear ownership across product marketing, content, email, ads. It's defined. And hearing you say that lack of clarity is what creates trust breakdown — that reframes a lot.

Lori Zukin (09:10) Exactly. You don't need perfect role clarity — especially in growing organizations — but as much as possible, it helps. When someone feels stepped on, the first question should be: is this truly a character issue, or is it a structural one? Are there misunderstandings around roles, decision authority, or expectations that we haven't addressed?

Canopy Host (10:12) In your experience working with accounting firms, who do you typically coach? Is it always partners, or do you see people at other levels engaging with executive coaches?

Lori Zukin (10:36) Most of my personal work is with CEOs, C-suite, and partners. My team works with all levels — we do both one-on-one coaching and team coaching to help teams perform better: decision-making, trust, outcomes.

Some of the issues that come up: how to communicate more effectively with peers and direct reports, how to build trust across the team, navigating major organizational change — like private equity conversations — and how to communicate all of that. People who've been promoted into new positions and need support handling the new complexity, building credibility with a new peer group, or adjusting to being senior to people who were previously their peers.

And those issues are not unique to accounting.

Canopy Host (11:59) Not at all.

Lori Zukin (12:14) In my work with Baker Tilly, I did coaching and also ran a two-year leadership immersion — we call it an immersion, not a program, because "program" implies a beginning and an end, and the learning is ongoing.

We noticed some differences between accountants and non-accountants, but not major ones. Accountants do bring more of an analytical perspective. But the high potentials we were working with already had a big-picture mindset. They recognized when to use their technical skills and when to lean into communication and relationships.

Canopy Host (13:50) I want to pivot to something listeners might be personally curious about: how do I know when I'm ready to work with an executive coach?

I mentioned before we hit record that I've recently started that journey. I've had bosses over the years with executive coaches, both company-provided and personal. What's the difference between an executive coach and a life coach — and how does someone know it's time?

Lori Zukin (14:34) Great question. Executive coaching focuses on leaders and aspiring leaders in an organizational context. Personal and life issues do come up — I take a holistic approach — but life coaching, as I understand it, is broader: general life goals without the specific focus on work and leadership.

As for when someone is ready: I'll share my own story. About 15 years ago, I got my first big promotion at Booz Allen Hamilton. I was holding my laptop, running to a big meeting, when my boss pulled me into his office and said: "Zukin, you are a leader now. You can't be running down the hall like that. People are watching you. I know you were ready for this position — but you have to be aware of the impact of your behavior and your state of mind on others."

That was eye-opening for me.

Canopy Host (15:50) That reminds me of the book Executive Presence by Sylvia Ann Hewlett. I haven't read it yet, but the title alone captures exactly what you're describing.

Lori Zukin (16:02) Yes — and there's another good one called Leadership Presence. But that moment is what got me into coaching. My boss said he thought I'd benefit from working with a coach as I stepped into the role. He was right.

Those nuances matter. We know these realities exist in leadership — but until you're in the position, until someone points it out, you don't necessarily know how to shift. We don't want to get in our own way just because we lacked that information.

Canopy Host (16:54) Exactly. And that's the gift of someone pulling you aside.

So for your listeners — when is it time to get a coach?

Lori Zukin (17:15) When you recognize a shift you want to make. Whether it's a new promotion, a big project, or just a feeling that something is different — you're starting to see things differently and you want help with that perspective shift.

That's really what coaching helps people do: develop greater self-awareness. And then be in greater choice about what to do with that awareness. If I had to name the single most important leadership capability, it's self-awareness.

Canopy Host (18:09) I started working with an executive coach about six months ago because of some relationships I was trying to navigate. I felt like I could confide in my boss, but at some point it felt right to have an outside perspective — someone who wasn't evaluating my performance.

She pulled up LinkedIn profiles. She doesn't know these people at all, but she started making connections: here's what I'm reading in the background, here's what might be affecting their behavior. Even when the assumptions were probably off, it completely took down my defensiveness.

I tend to get defensive. I'm grateful I know that about myself, because it lets me catch it. But sometimes it's almost physiological — I need to go for a run. And that exercise, even when the conclusions were wrong, gave me so much more patience for approaching my colleagues. That's what I need as I grow into a leadership role.

Lori Zukin (20:29) That's a great example of the work. What I'm hearing is that we all tell ourselves stories about other people and situations.

One exercise I use a lot: when someone brings me a complaint about a colleague, I ask them to distinguish between the facts and the opinions. The facts are what you'd see on film. The opinions are your assessment of it.

The fact: someone slammed their hand on the table. The story: they were angry with you. But maybe they were angry at something else. Maybe they were scared. Maybe they were just trying to stay alert. What is the fact — and what is the story?

The more you practice making those distinctions, the more you realize how often we create unnecessary downward spirals, especially when we're already not at our best. The work is to identify: what is the limiting belief I have about this person or situation, and how can I shift it to something less limiting?

Canopy Host (22:01) You're always going to over-index on the things you know — and so much of what you know is deeply internal. Your insecurities, your stress from home, your whatever. Nobody else knows 90% of what's going on in our heads.

And we use all of that to color our interpretation of someone slamming a hand on the desk. But we don't know their 90% either.

Lori Zukin (22:43) Exactly. This is why I wish everyone had a good coach and a therapist. The world would be kinder — and we'd get more done.

This isn't a kumbaya statement. It's practical. I spend hours on conflict resolution because people are telling themselves stories that create unnecessary swirl and waste productive time. If they had more self-awareness, so much of that conflict would disappear.

Canopy Host (23:15) I have a love of Scandinavia. I read The Little Book of Hygge years ago, written by the CEO of the Happiness Institute in Copenhagen. I'm currently reading another of his books, The Art of Danish Living: How to Find Happiness In and Out of Work.

His argument — and mine too — is that happier people are more productive. When someone is well-rested, well-fed, socially connected, and genuinely excited to come to work, their hours produce so much more than someone who's under-slept or whose personal life is in crisis. When you create conditions for employees to thrive outside of work, they thrive inside of work.

Lori Zukin (24:42) One hundred percent — and it's a fact, not just a belief. That's where the whole-person approach to coaching comes in. If someone is miserable at work, there are often simple things worth checking first. Sleep. Food. I did a LinkedIn post on this: sometimes all someone needs is a snack and a walk around the block. Do that before a hard meeting.

One thing I talk about a lot is state of mind — being aware of whether you're above the line or below the line. Above the line means you're open, resourceful, clear. Below the line is reactive, defensive, depleted.

If you're below the line, do what you can to get to neutral before a tough conversation. And if you can't get there, take a break. Don't start a hard conversation when you're running on empty.

Canopy Host (25:49) Our CEO actually sent our leadership team a video on this concept a while back. Is it the same idea as the book Above the Line?

Lori Zukin (26:06) The Conscious Leadership Group has a short video on it, and their book is called Conscious Leadership — that's probably the one.

I'd add one nuance: as a society, we push the idea that we have to be happy all the time. But being below the line isn't a failure — it's human. The goal isn't constant happiness; it's awareness. Know when you're below the line, know the impact it has, and communicate about it when you can't get above it. You can say: "I just got some hard news. I'm not my usual self today — I hope you'll understand." That kind of transparency protects your relationships even when you can't show up at your best.

Canopy Host (27:29) Good distinction — thank you. Okay, rapid fire to wrap up.

What do you feel is the most overlooked skill in firm leaders today?

Lori Zukin (28:16) Truly seeing others for something they can't see in themselves. When a leader takes time to recognize a talent or strength in someone that person doesn't know they have — that's rare. And it matters at every level, not just in formal leadership roles. You can be a leader regardless of your title.

Canopy Host (28:37) I love that. Next — self-awareness or experience: what matters more long-term?

Lori Zukin (28:49) Self-awareness.

Canopy Host (28:50) Fast answer. I think if you're self-aware, you get to the right experience faster. Yeah?

Lori Zukin (29:02) Exactly. It comes down to this: wisdom matters more than knowledge.

Canopy Host (29:07) Love that. Lori, thank you so much. You were a delight. This was a unique conversation for this podcast — but our listeners deal with these things too. Leaders everywhere face this. I appreciated getting to share a little of my own experience. Thank you.

Lori Zukin (29:14) My pleasure. I'm happy to answer any questions that surface. I love talking about this work. And I'll say it again — I wish everyone had a coach and a therapist. The world would be a much better place.